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Cake day: May 07, 2022

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Hostilities started after 2014 coup that was orchestrated by US.

So it didn’t start in 2008 when Ukraine applied to NATO?


That application was shelved in 2010 by the Yanukovich government. The Maidan government changed nothing to that status, and explicitly said that it had no intention to join NATO. So from that perspective it is hard to see the Crimean invasion as a direct consequence of that 2008 application.

It was rather, I guess we agree on that, a direct consequence to the Maidan revolution. The link being, you claim, that this government was set up by the US and planned to join NATO. What did it say or do that indicated that it wanted to join NATO? The fact that it didn’t, over a few weeks, cancel the shelved application that the Yanukovych government didn’t cancel over 6 years?


Sorry, what did I say that you interpret as admitting that?


I’m sorry that 30 years of history can’t be summed up in a convenient soundbite for you.

I didn’t ask for a summary, I asked you about evidence to back up your specific point that the Maidan government planned to join NATO, and that Russia wouldn’t have attacked otherwise.

It is nice of you to provide extra context, what I am calling out is that you didn’t separate the context from the actual answer to my clear specific question


Russia (via the Soviet Union) has a history of invading Finland

Russia’s history of invading Finland predates the existence of the USSR by at least 200 years. This only strengthens your point.


Thanks a lot, didn’t know the English word ! Was looking for a translation of “mille-feuille argumentatif” from French and didn’t find better than the quantitatively weaker “red herrings”


All of them? Great!

First thing first, what does the first one say? Oh, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtOx6dW_0vU

So maybe let’s try a simple one. How does an open letter written to Clinton in 97 show that the US orchestrated the Maidan revolution? Seems a bit too early…

I should at least try one that mentions Ukraine. This one looks to have a very relevant title. No mention of Maidan or Crimea though. Some old-time things, some newer-time things, but not a mention to 2014, to the so-called Maidan coup or to Crimea.

Looks like it will take me more time, I’ll come back when I have gone through the hundreds of pages and hours of videos that you sent me. Or you could stop flooding me with red herrings and point out a source to the single claim I asked you a source for. Your call.

Ukraine expressed ambitions to join NATO back in 2008.

And as I answered there the procedure was put aside in 2010 for the sake of neutrality, neutrality that was reaffirmed by the Maidan government.


Could you specifically point out the sources relevant to the statement that the Maidan revolution was orchestrated by the US and directed at integrating Ukraine into NATO?


I indeed poorly choose my words, sorry about that.
What I said :

Ukraine had no official ambition to join NATO before the Crimea annexation.

can be understood in two ways :

  • Ukraine had never had such plans ever
  • Ukraine didn’t have such plans just before the invasion

I meant the second one, but I recognize that I should have stated that more clearly.


US sponsored coup. The goal of the coup was to install a nationalist government, that Nuland is on the record handpicking, that would collaborate with US agenda to expand NATO into Ukraine.

Source?


What about you read the rest of the same Wikipedia paragraph instead of isolating the sentence that seems to make you right?

Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President. Amid the Euromaidan unrest, Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014. The interim Yatseniuk Government which came to power initially said, with reference to the country’s non-aligned status, that it had no plans to join NATO.

(I stop here as the rest concerns what happens after Russian invasion)

So OK, I didn’t write it in the best possible way (as it couod be read as “Ukraine had never made any plan to join NATO ever”, which was not my intention) but my point is still correct : just before the invasion, Ukraine had no such plans.

Maybe you consider that having had a plan to join NATO 4 years before justifies annexing a part of the country?


It seems to me that you are once again using what happened after Crimea’s annexation as an a posteriori justification for it. You are basically saying that Ukraine collaborating with NATO after being invaded by Russia shows that it was previously being aggressive towards Russia. Is there any fact predating Russia’s annexion of Crimea that shows Maidan government’s ambition to join NATO?

Note also that my original point is not contradicting anyithing you said. If Russia invaded Ukraine because of mere signs that it might want to join NATO, what prevents it from doing the same with Finland?
Finland is a EU country that shares a border with Russia and collaborates with NATO, so it is (qualitatively) as much a threat to Russia’s existence as Ukraine was, so it may be invaded by Russia someday for the same reason, so it has a motivation to join NATO to protect itself against that possibility.


My Spotify (and now Pandora) playlists have music from Brazil, Irish Folk, Scottish Folk, UK, Germany, France, The Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Slovakia, Belgium, Mongolia, Hungary, The Czech Republic, South Africa, Tanzania, India, Japan, South Korea, and Australia.

As an Italian, I’m sad; as a Belgian, I’m curious 😀

and to write.

And that got me nation-neutrally curious ! What do you write?


The Maidan revolution happened because of aborted economics ties with EU, and the Maidan government wanted to strengthen economic relations with EU. There was no clear intention to integrate NATO.


Ukraine had no official ambition to join NATO before the Crimea annexation.


Neither did they have any plan to invade Ukraine… Not arguing whether or not this invasion was justified, but it is happening, and wouldn’t have happened if Ukraine was in NATO.


It will change that Russia won’t be able to onvade them without waging war on NATO


This account is indeed a Friendica account, so people can follow me. I was asking about Lemmy out of curiosity


Does it work with lemmy btw? Not sure how much sense it makes given that one cannot follow a lemmy account, but who knows



Like my other introduction, but on Lemmy

Hello, I go by Liwott, and I like playing with Fediverse’s interoperability, so I’ll do that to reshare my introduction in a comment…

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A FediToLemmyLab community?

!fediverse
Would you find it useful to have a community dedicated to trying out things from other fedi platforms? …

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